Let me put a parallel twist. Let's say Joe decides to write a program that constantly scans the Blizzard forums for blue posts, and display all of these blue posts in the program. Joe also decides to puts advertisements in this program.
No where does the program redistribute or hosts any of Blizzard's data, but it does consume Blizzard's bandwidth without the users normally going to Blizzard's website and looking at Blizzard advertisements among other things.
This isn't really any different from all the various blue trackers out there, they ALL have advertisements. MMO-Champion is an example.
----
If I then wrote a web browser and put advertisements in it (yes, nobody would use it), and then forcefully programmed my web browser to never display ads from webpages I retrieved (omg built-int ad-block!) it would still be legal, it is just an application to connect to a server to retrieve web content for display, even if I were to profit from my own advertisements therein.
----
I like how hypocritical how some of you people can be, you block ads in your browsers, and yet some of you complain about a program called WoWMatrix is drawing away ads revenue from UI hosting sites (some of you might specifically allow ads to go through on say wowinterface site, but the principal applies).
I share Cogwheel's view. It is just an updater. Like any other. Like JWU or WUU. Everyone is just objecting to the ad profits, it becomes a discussion of MORALS as opposed to LEGALITY.
What WoWMatrix is doing is more than just slightly "deep linking" and this has resulted in lawsuit after lawsuit after lawsuit in the past, all in favor of the person not wanting deep linking. To be specific, linking to someone else's content on the internet (just like hotlinking images) without also including the public-face "environment" for that content, i.e., the usual download pages for these sites, is not considered kosher by the legal system. ...and this is even more of an open-and-shut case than simply framing someone else's content, which lost several lawsuits as well. it doesn't matter that the content is "public", it still has to remain in it's original presentational context. You can link to the page where someone has their download links listed, but you can't just blindly link to the downloadable files themselves, so you certainly can't just hoover the things up with a robot script in abeyance of legal obligations.
Frankly, if I were running one of the sites they were leeching from, I'd start checking user-agent strings and giving those WoWMatrix clients a different archive with just a one pane UI that says "WoWMatrix is bollocks".
I like Cogwheel too for being a code-monkey and very helpful to budding and accomplished authors alike,
but he's presenting his preference as fact both in this case and previous discussions about commercializing addons.
I can acknowledge a "free-market" viewpoint, but I don't have to agree to it,
and no it's not as clear cut as he presents it.
The only thing allowing WoWMatrix to operate is the belligerence of addon hosting sites.
Authors and even users don't get into it much, we can disregard both to simplify things.
The sites that wowmatrix is leeching bandwidth off are the main problem.
What this program is doing is pushing addon sites to implement anti-leech mechanisms.
If that's something you'd like to see, then continue using it.
Let me put a parallel twist. Let's say Joe decides to write a program that constantly scans the Blizzard forums for blue posts, and display all of these blue posts in the program. Joe also decides to puts advertisements in this program.
No where does the program redistribute or hosts any of Blizzard's data, but it does consume Blizzard's bandwidth without the users normally going to Blizzard's website and looking at Blizzard advertisements among other things.
This isn't really any different from all the various blue trackers out there, they ALL have advertisements. MMO-Champion is an example.
----
If I then wrote a web browser and put advertisements in it (yes, nobody would use it), and then forcefully programmed my web browser to never display ads from webpages I retrieved (omg built-int ad-block!) it would still be legal, it is just an application to connect to a server to retrieve web content for display, even if I were to profit from my own advertisements therein.
----
I like how hypocritical how some of you people can be, you block ads in your browsers, and yet some of you complain about a program called WoWMatrix is drawing away ads revenue from UI hosting sites (some of you might specifically allow ads to go through on say wowinterface site, but the principal applies).
Blue trackers DO host the data, and that itself can be a deterrent on bandwitdh use as some people are only interested in reading the forums for Blizzard replies.
For example i never visit the US forums, i visit a blue tracker to keep me updated on topics, i sometimes rarely follow the discussions in those posts, but i don't regularely visit the forum scouring for data, which i would need to do if i didn't have a Blue Tracker.
When you download an addon through WoWMatrix the addon is downloaded from the original host, that would be equilivant to a blue tracker checking for new blue posts upon user visit, rather than on a schedule.
But one thing is that WoWMatrix steals bandwitdh, the other is that they block communication between authors and users, by using WoWMatrix i don't know who maintains what addon, where to report issues, etc.
The sites that wowmatrix is leeching bandwidth off are the main problem.
What this program is doing is pushing addon sites to implement anti-leech mechanisms.
If that's something you'd like to see, then continue using it.
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by the UI sites being the problem, but I can assure you that they (wowi and curse alike, probably also wowui) have been trying to prevent wowmatrix from leeching. When we change where our downloads are, wowmatrix changes. They know they're leeching. They know we're trying to prevent it. They don't care. I suggested a blank page that tells wowmatrix to go to hell, too. :)
The other cross-site updaters leech bandwidth, too, this is true. But they are much more respectful of the sites and authors in what they do. They acknowledge authors, and iirc, they link back to the sites. That doesn't mean that wowi, curse, etc, support the other updaters, it just means that we don't grit our teeth as much about it.
Ever since wowmatrix was released, it was deemed shady and authors have been telling them to remove their mods and sites have been trying to prevent their theft. You can search these forums for the original threads on the subject from about a year or so ago.
The only reliable way to prevent leeching would be some captcha on any file download but that would bug the regular users too and break any other tolerated updaters.
The only reliable way to prevent leeching would be some captcha on any file download but that would bug the regular users too and break any other tolerated updaters.
Or require a user login for download, you'd have to make a download management system too though.
Issue I have with it is that I get support questions regarding it... ie: why isn't this download working for example. I don't host my addons on wowmatrix but I have to deal with the support issues. I already don't have time to play wow because of development and then I have to deal with support issues that aren't my own? Bleh. :P
Any system I can thing of that thwarted a scraping program would annoy the heck out of a regular user. I'm not nearly as clever as most of the people here though. Blaming a victim for their abuse doesn't float well in a court of law though, so I don't see any reason why it should float here.
The only issue I see with updaters as a user is that the hosting site doesn't get ad revenue or page hits from them. I have no issues if you support the site via some other means (donations or a subscription), though. Users should try to support bandwidth they use, always, when possible. Kinda sucks that addons are so small and therefore don't work well in a distributed distribution system like Bittorrent.
I haven't used Curse's client yet, since as I understand it does require a login and I don't have access to mine yet. But I would be sorely disappointed if it was more complicated than scanning my interface folder, double checking to make sure addons are linked to the right ones, and then selectively updating them. If I need details or support I should be able to drill down on an addon in the initial view (which should be a simple list, I love WUU's interface), or go where I got it from in the first place. I do not support installing addons from any place other than the original website for that reason, it forces the user to associate the initial install with a support location. The "install this from Curse client" links on the downloads work fine for challenged users who can't figure out manual installs, while still requiring them to come to the project for the first install.
I personally find it utterly hilarious that the people over at WoWMatrix are claiming that what they are doing is perfectly ok since they aren't really hosting any copyrighted material, yet they find it perfectly ok to deep-link into copyrighted material, without asking for any sort of permission whatsoever or at least mentioning the author's name. As Ackis said, how are authors supposed to deal with that situation ? No user who has never had to deal with support issues spawned by such situations can really comprehend this, some even couldn't care less. After all they are getting their addons updated.
You may argue that they aren't really doing anything illegal, but to me that's just a technicality. Fact remains, that from the moment they allow you to acquire stuff that you potentially didn't have installed, excuse me if I say, they are doing something more than a simple automated update script. Distribution ? Hell, yes, they are distributing stuff but [FONT="]conveniently[/FONT] having their as**s covered, since they aren't directly hosting them.
I also find the fact that all of a sudden no one seems to care much about stolen bandwidth and the costs assosiated with it, after the huge discussions about WoWAce's old problems with bandwidth and costs, interesting to say the least. One would think, that people would be more understanding to a problem like this, regardless of the entity affected.
And yes, the same goes for all the "unofficial updaters", as Seerah said, the reason they are tolerated is because they didn't piss most authors/admins off by being so transparent in the way they handle things (not that I agree with it anyway).
So yeah, WoWMatrix might not be the source of all evil on earth, but don't expect a lot of people to agree with its practices.
I also find the fact that all of a sudden no one seems to care much about stolen bandwidth and the costs assosiated with it, after the huge discussions about WoWAce's old problems with bandwidth and costs, interesting to say the least. One would think, that people would be more understanding to a problem like this, regardless of the entity affected.
Because the point is moot and irrelevant.
The amount of bandwidth used by WoWInterface is exactly the same if the user were to manually download each addon one by one, compared to using an updater that does it all at one go. In both cases, the same number of zips is being downloaded, one is manual, one is automated.
In fact, using an updater will decrease the bandwidth needed because it skips all the webpages, screenshots, comment pages, etc. In a majority of addons, the actual zip is likely to be far far far smaller than the size of the webpages/screenshots/comments served.
The amount of bandwidth used by WoWInterface is exactly the same if the user were to manually download each addon one by one, compared to using an updater that does it all at one go. In both cases, the same number of zips is being downloaded, one is manual, one is automated.
That implies that the user would absolutely visit the webpage, in order to download said addon, if the updater wasn't around ;) Some can't be bothered, some less "initiated" might not even know where to look. It all comes down to who makes money out of it (or who doesn't) and while it's also true that some people use let's say ad blockers, generalizing this is something I'm not willing to touch.
It all comes down to who makes money out of it (or who doesn't) and while it's also true that some people use let's say ad blockers, generalizing this is something I'm not willing to touch.
What annoys me is that every argument boils back down to money. I don't CARE that wowmatrix made money out of it, because if they didn't attempt to, nobody would even have complained about WoWMatrix, and it would have been "just another updater out there".
Does whether they make money out of it make wowmatrix any more or any less legal? It makes no difference.
Actually I would be annoyed regardless, the moment I found out my stuff being distributed by a 3rd party unknown to me, without my consent with no actual reference to myself or to the places I want used for support purposes. Can't speak for others though.
As for who makes money out of it, it's not my primary concern either, however I can see how it can be a concern and given the option, I'd much rather have the people who are gracious enough to host the addons, benefit from it financially than anyone else.
Blaming a victim for their abuse doesn't float well in a court of law though, so I don't see any reason why it should float here.
Aye, and I did try to make this user aware of the fact that people round 'nya don't like WM and why, without jumping on him for using it or asking about it. But if you look back, he did "fire the first round", and then left the thread completely... and now it's just a bunch of people continuing the flames he sparked.
Actually I would be annoyed regardless, the moment I found out my stuff being distributed by a 3rd party unknown to me, without my consent with no actual reference to myself or to the places I want used for support purposes. Can't speak for others though.
Are you annoyed at WAU or JWU or WUU or others then? They are parties that never asked you for permission to be distributed via them.
I honestly think most of the wowmatrix hate is just bandwagon and groupthink, and the only difference is the money from ads. If wowmatrix removed their ads and stopped getting money, the amount of traffic "leeched" wouldn't be any different for wowinterface and other addons sites, in fact it might increase because more people might use it.
I'd much rather have the people who are gracious enough to host the addons, benefit from it financially than anyone else.
Aye, that's the overall view around here I believe. You just put it better than others have. Support is secondary to that, and some people don't care all that much on that respect, but I think everyone here wants the hosting site to be supported over the people that wrote some external updater. I mean, ace wouldn't be in the situation it's in if it wasn't for the whole bandwidth issue. We don't want that problem being forced onto the sites that help us out.
If WoWMatrix really is that great, then they should throw some of their ad money back to the sites to support the bandwidth they're using. If they make more off the ads than the bandwidth costs, great, they can keep that for themselves. But in the end, they're not only freeloading off other site's bandwidth, but they're turning a buck doing it, and that just ain't kosher.
honestly, the whole legal-ethics-otherwise discussion doesn't bother me at all. fact is, when i read about the change in wowace.com, i did download the curse client. i did create a curse account, just to use it. i tried using the curse client to update my addons.
1st the curse updater installed a new addon without ever asking me to. that's a no do! no argument possible.
2nd it broke several of my addons by trying to autoupdate them. ok, i had backups - but why an autoupdate? it shouldn't even be able to do this, 'cause i don't have a premium account. i wouldn't complain about the extra, unpaid for feature, but i complain about the presetting. a simple ask-before-the-update-starts-function would be nice. like the green "play"-button in wau. i couldn't find such an option in the curse client.
3rd the curse-client doesn't show me if an addon needs updating. just an (incomplete) list of my installed addons. and if i use the update-button it doesn't do anything most of the time. even if i know there is an update for this addon.
yes, i know, it's beta software. but thats exactly my point. it's beta (an if you are honest, it's leaning more in the alpha direction). it's not useable. when i want to update my addons today, i have to use another updater. i don't consider manual updating an option.
i am looking forward to an useable curse-updater. i promise, i will use it as soon as it comes out. till then i will use other means to keep updating.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumNo where does the program redistribute or hosts any of Blizzard's data, but it does consume Blizzard's bandwidth without the users normally going to Blizzard's website and looking at Blizzard advertisements among other things.
This isn't really any different from all the various blue trackers out there, they ALL have advertisements. MMO-Champion is an example.
----
If I then wrote a web browser and put advertisements in it (yes, nobody would use it), and then forcefully programmed my web browser to never display ads from webpages I retrieved (omg built-int ad-block!) it would still be legal, it is just an application to connect to a server to retrieve web content for display, even if I were to profit from my own advertisements therein.
----
I like how hypocritical how some of you people can be, you block ads in your browsers, and yet some of you complain about a program called WoWMatrix is drawing away ads revenue from UI hosting sites (some of you might specifically allow ads to go through on say wowinterface site, but the principal applies).
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumI like Cogwheel too for being a code-monkey and very helpful to budding and accomplished authors alike,
but he's presenting his preference as fact both in this case and previous discussions about commercializing addons.
I can acknowledge a "free-market" viewpoint, but I don't have to agree to it,
and no it's not as clear cut as he presents it.
The only thing allowing WoWMatrix to operate is the belligerence of addon hosting sites.
http://www.webweaver.nu/html-tips/hotlinking.shtml
Authors and even users don't get into it much, we can disregard both to simplify things.
The sites that wowmatrix is leeching bandwidth off are the main problem.
What this program is doing is pushing addon sites to implement anti-leech mechanisms.
If that's something you'd like to see, then continue using it.
Blue trackers DO host the data, and that itself can be a deterrent on bandwitdh use as some people are only interested in reading the forums for Blizzard replies.
For example i never visit the US forums, i visit a blue tracker to keep me updated on topics, i sometimes rarely follow the discussions in those posts, but i don't regularely visit the forum scouring for data, which i would need to do if i didn't have a Blue Tracker.
When you download an addon through WoWMatrix the addon is downloaded from the original host, that would be equilivant to a blue tracker checking for new blue posts upon user visit, rather than on a schedule.
But one thing is that WoWMatrix steals bandwitdh, the other is that they block communication between authors and users, by using WoWMatrix i don't know who maintains what addon, where to report issues, etc.
Using Curse Client i know.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumI'll sit on the fence for now.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumI'm not entirely sure what you mean by the UI sites being the problem, but I can assure you that they (wowi and curse alike, probably also wowui) have been trying to prevent wowmatrix from leeching. When we change where our downloads are, wowmatrix changes. They know they're leeching. They know we're trying to prevent it. They don't care. I suggested a blank page that tells wowmatrix to go to hell, too. :)
The other cross-site updaters leech bandwidth, too, this is true. But they are much more respectful of the sites and authors in what they do. They acknowledge authors, and iirc, they link back to the sites. That doesn't mean that wowi, curse, etc, support the other updaters, it just means that we don't grit our teeth as much about it.
Ever since wowmatrix was released, it was deemed shady and authors have been telling them to remove their mods and sites have been trying to prevent their theft. You can search these forums for the original threads on the subject from about a year or so ago.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumOr require a user login for download, you'd have to make a download management system too though.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse Premium-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumUpdaters could still handle the login part by asking the user the login and the password.
Right.
The only issue I see with updaters as a user is that the hosting site doesn't get ad revenue or page hits from them. I have no issues if you support the site via some other means (donations or a subscription), though. Users should try to support bandwidth they use, always, when possible. Kinda sucks that addons are so small and therefore don't work well in a distributed distribution system like Bittorrent.
I haven't used Curse's client yet, since as I understand it does require a login and I don't have access to mine yet. But I would be sorely disappointed if it was more complicated than scanning my interface folder, double checking to make sure addons are linked to the right ones, and then selectively updating them. If I need details or support I should be able to drill down on an addon in the initial view (which should be a simple list, I love WUU's interface), or go where I got it from in the first place. I do not support installing addons from any place other than the original website for that reason, it forces the user to associate the initial install with a support location. The "install this from Curse client" links on the downloads work fine for challenged users who can't figure out manual installs, while still requiring them to come to the project for the first install.
You may argue that they aren't really doing anything illegal, but to me that's just a technicality. Fact remains, that from the moment they allow you to acquire stuff that you potentially didn't have installed, excuse me if I say, they are doing something more than a simple automated update script. Distribution ? Hell, yes, they are distributing stuff but [FONT="]conveniently[/FONT] having their as**s covered, since they aren't directly hosting them.
I also find the fact that all of a sudden no one seems to care much about stolen bandwidth and the costs assosiated with it, after the huge discussions about WoWAce's old problems with bandwidth and costs, interesting to say the least. One would think, that people would be more understanding to a problem like this, regardless of the entity affected.
And yes, the same goes for all the "unofficial updaters", as Seerah said, the reason they are tolerated is because they didn't piss most authors/admins off by being so transparent in the way they handle things (not that I agree with it anyway).
So yeah, WoWMatrix might not be the source of all evil on earth, but don't expect a lot of people to agree with its practices.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumBecause the point is moot and irrelevant.
The amount of bandwidth used by WoWInterface is exactly the same if the user were to manually download each addon one by one, compared to using an updater that does it all at one go. In both cases, the same number of zips is being downloaded, one is manual, one is automated.
In fact, using an updater will decrease the bandwidth needed because it skips all the webpages, screenshots, comment pages, etc. In a majority of addons, the actual zip is likely to be far far far smaller than the size of the webpages/screenshots/comments served.
That implies that the user would absolutely visit the webpage, in order to download said addon, if the updater wasn't around ;) Some can't be bothered, some less "initiated" might not even know where to look. It all comes down to who makes money out of it (or who doesn't) and while it's also true that some people use let's say ad blockers, generalizing this is something I'm not willing to touch.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumWhat annoys me is that every argument boils back down to money. I don't CARE that wowmatrix made money out of it, because if they didn't attempt to, nobody would even have complained about WoWMatrix, and it would have been "just another updater out there".
Does whether they make money out of it make wowmatrix any more or any less legal? It makes no difference.
As for who makes money out of it, it's not my primary concern either, however I can see how it can be a concern and given the option, I'd much rather have the people who are gracious enough to host the addons, benefit from it financially than anyone else.
Aye, and I did try to make this user aware of the fact that people round 'nya don't like WM and why, without jumping on him for using it or asking about it. But if you look back, he did "fire the first round", and then left the thread completely... and now it's just a bunch of people continuing the flames he sparked.
In short... meh, you're all going in circles.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
Curse PremiumAre you annoyed at WAU or JWU or WUU or others then? They are parties that never asked you for permission to be distributed via them.
I honestly think most of the wowmatrix hate is just bandwagon and groupthink, and the only difference is the money from ads. If wowmatrix removed their ads and stopped getting money, the amount of traffic "leeched" wouldn't be any different for wowinterface and other addons sites, in fact it might increase because more people might use it.
Aye, that's the overall view around here I believe. You just put it better than others have. Support is secondary to that, and some people don't care all that much on that respect, but I think everyone here wants the hosting site to be supported over the people that wrote some external updater. I mean, ace wouldn't be in the situation it's in if it wasn't for the whole bandwidth issue. We don't want that problem being forced onto the sites that help us out.
If WoWMatrix really is that great, then they should throw some of their ad money back to the sites to support the bandwidth they're using. If they make more off the ads than the bandwidth costs, great, they can keep that for themselves. But in the end, they're not only freeloading off other site's bandwidth, but they're turning a buck doing it, and that just ain't kosher.
1st the curse updater installed a new addon without ever asking me to. that's a no do! no argument possible.
2nd it broke several of my addons by trying to autoupdate them. ok, i had backups - but why an autoupdate? it shouldn't even be able to do this, 'cause i don't have a premium account. i wouldn't complain about the extra, unpaid for feature, but i complain about the presetting. a simple ask-before-the-update-starts-function would be nice. like the green "play"-button in wau. i couldn't find such an option in the curse client.
3rd the curse-client doesn't show me if an addon needs updating. just an (incomplete) list of my installed addons. and if i use the update-button it doesn't do anything most of the time. even if i know there is an update for this addon.
yes, i know, it's beta software. but thats exactly my point. it's beta (an if you are honest, it's leaning more in the alpha direction). it's not useable. when i want to update my addons today, i have to use another updater. i don't consider manual updating an option.
i am looking forward to an useable curse-updater. i promise, i will use it as soon as it comes out. till then i will use other means to keep updating.