WowMatrix "leechs" bandwidth in the same manner any ordinary user would visiting the websites and downloading each add-on one by one. It's a garbage argument to toss WowMatrix for.
They're providing the perfect application for the average dumbass and it's within their rights to include advertisements.
The real issue here is the CC, which I'm having a difficult time getting accustomed to. :rolleyes:
I installed WoWMatrix on a second pc in my house that I use different mods on.When I looked at random mods, they all showed authors in the description.I didn't look at them all though...
It indexes all major addon hosting sites.
It is clean/fast, easy for the everyday user, powerful for the advanced user (regexp filters for example).
It provides basic addon information, but directs you to the hosting sites for download.
It links to the addon page not the addon file.
That's what an addon updater (not a site updater) should look like.
It would be a great service and no one could object, authors, hosting sites or users.
The options are there.
Index the pages, provide meta-search capabilities but send the traffic back to the sites bearing the cost.
All generic updaters that have been mentioned in this and the wowi thread,
are guilty of leeching bandwidth off the addon hosting sites.
What sets Wowmatrix apart and paints a bullseye on their ass is that their attitude is a big "f_ck you"
to authors and addon hosts alike.
Developers of other updaters have a rapport with the community, their creators
are engaging in dialog, they would probably be willing to take steps to alleviate the problem.
Example: provide the link to the addon page, or links to the hosting sites in your updater,
seek out sponsorship options etc.
To recap the basic issues:
1. Hotlinking is bad (no matter who's doing it) - I won't go over why again, google it.
2. Making a batch downloader for yourself or using an adblocker is a totally different thing
than providing it as a "service" to the public and enabling hundreds and thousands
of users to leech off legitimate providers (in many occasions without even them knowing what they're doing)
3. Addon authors are entitled to choose the distribution method of their work (free for use has nothing to do with it)
and where they want to receive feedback.
4. If these parasites are allowed to flourish only 2 things can come of it.
- Addon hosting sites going to extreme measures to thwart leeching (which is in their rights)
and making life miserable for users (captcha, blocking referrers or a multitude of anti-leech methods available).
- Just deciding it's not worth the effort and addons moving to filefront/rapidshare, free repositories or going private.
I don't like any of these options, informing users and even peer-pressure is a means toward that end.
I do want the parasites to get the bad rep they deserve, I don't pretend neutrality.
If people's attitude is "lololol screw you 1-click updates" there's nothing to be said to that.
Enjoy it while it lasts (won't be for long - they probably thought wau would be forever too).
Several of us authors have gotten their mods removed from wowmatrix, only takes 2 emails... but they did get removed. I believe this is the best way to kill it off.
It really does smell like a business tort of the "unfair business practice" type if they advertise while leeching from hosts. They gain an unfair income by exploiting expenses of a business competitor.
If they one-time sold the client it would be somewhat different, because then they could argue that they charge for the development time of the client - though it still remained iffy because they rely on cost incurred to others to justify the attractiveness of the sell, but through advertising they get income proportional to use, which is proportional to expense (actual damage) incurred to another entity, namely those who actually provide the bandwidth. And this cost they are directly responsible for having caused, while bypassing the usually linked income of/for the competitor.
Similar things: Imagine you make web-page called new-flork tymes. It links to new york times articles but embeds them in new advertisements while causing full traffic cost and offering no salery compenstation to journalists to NYT, in fact even if it made local copies clearly there remains the issue of unfair business practice. Or, imagine mytoobs, which redoes the full youtube interface maybe in a more usable fashion but links to youtube videos directly but also provides independent new advertising.
Clearly all these are a problem of similar type. All these are interfering with normal economic relations between customers and providers - by incurring damages to the provider, while taking revenue from the customer.
The whole copyright/author angle seems to be a way weaker angle on this than the tort related to "causing bandwidth cost while bypassing original cost recovery". In fact youtube kind of relies on the "video is up until we get asked for it to be pulled" model but they don't systematically tort cnn by digitizing the channel 24/7, stripping all ads and putting in their own instead.
On a personal note, I don't really care about author credit. So to me the whole author credit things isn't anything that bothers me personally, but people's preferences vary. I can fully see that curse, wowi, wowui etc totally care. Wowmatrix isn't really incurring unfair cost to me, but I can see how they do it to those sites.
If wowmatrix negotiated a revenue backflow model with the sites, i.e. that income proportional to sites visited will be returned, I could see that working, even with some income remaining with wowmatrix for developing the software... but from what I read so far that hasn't happened/isn't happening. Of course that would totally depend on whether the ad revenue actually exceeds the bandwidth cost. If not, the whole model absolutely relies on hiding/offloading cost unfairly.
My problem with author credit is only that users have no idea where to go to get help/report bugs. We can build credit into our options pages, it's in our tocs, etc. But many times we rely on the hosting sites to at least point people in the right direction.
Of course the biggest issue imo is the stealing of bandwidth. If they hosted it themselves, I'd be ok with it.
Here let me light this up in a different angle. Maybe this will help.
I, as an addon author, have given curse.com & wowinterface.com the legal right to host, distribute and in effect make a profit off of hosting and distributing my addon in any means they deem is right. While still retaing the right to revoke this from the 2 sites, to an extent. However i have not authorized WoWMatrix to make profit off of my addon in any means what so ever. While i understand that they do not host the content they still link to it and make profit off it.
Now if they did a write up on the mod and supplied links to the hosting site to download it from, or even a direct link to download it from, it would be considered fair-use under copyright laws. However they are not. They are in common context of an updater program linking to my addon and making money off that. I am being violated because someone is making money off of my work.
Some would say that it's open source and the licence allows for that, infact mine does not. You must alter it and rename it, as it states I reserve the right over the proper name and officaial version. It might be slight of hand, but it still fishy.
Several of us authors have gotten their mods removed from wowmatrix, only takes 2 emails... but they did get removed. I believe this is the best way to kill it off.
I recently found out about WoWMatrix, the controversial issues surrounding it, the fact that my addon (EquipCompare) is available via WoWMatrix and that several authors successfully emailed them to ask their addons to be removed from WoWMatrix's list. I wasn't too happy about the situation either, so I decided to try a little experiment.
Instead of sending them an email asking them to remove my addon from the list, I have quoted them the following passage from EquipCompare's license terms:
"If you distribute or re-host this AddOn, either in a compilation or by itself, you must include a link to the AddOn's official page as the author is responsible for maintaining only the official page of the AddOn.",
and pointed out to them that they do not show a link to the official page anywhere, nor do they make it possible for a user to see the link in any way, and therefore they violate these terms. I have, rather egotistically, demanded that either they comply with the license terms or to remove my addon from WoWMatrix's list. I was aware that their updater program isn't designed to show author names/URLs/links to official pages, so I have fully expected them to just remove EquipCompare from the list, but this is not what happened.
I was fully surprised to see that they have modified WoWMatrix so that when you right-click on EquipCompare in WoWMatrix, you get a popup menu with a single "Visit Official Page" link that opens EquipCompare's official page in your favourit webbrowser. The amuzing part is that this popup menu appears only for EquipCompare and no other addon.
I'm not sure what to make of this exactly, but maybe if enough authors demanded that WoWMatrix display (in some form) a link to the official page of the addon, they might make this a universal feature. Whether that'd be good or bad is beyond this post ;-)
I was fully surprised to see that they have modified WoWMatrix so that when you right-click on EquipCompare in WoWMatrix, you get a popup menu with a single "Visit Official Page" link that opens EquipCompare's official page in your favourit webbrowser. The amuzing part is that this popup menu appears only for EquipCompare and no other addon.
I'm not sure what to make of this exactly, but maybe if enough authors demanded that WoWMatrix display (in some form) a link to the official page of the addon, they might make this a universal feature. Whether that'd be good or bad is beyond this post ;-)
I'm thoroughly confused about that...making a special case for one addon rather than making it the default for all. VERY odd.
I was fully surprised to see that they have modified WoWMatrix so that when you right-click on EquipCompare in WoWMatrix, you get a popup menu with a single "Visit Official Page" link that opens EquipCompare's official page in your favourit webbrowser. The amuzing part is that this popup menu appears only for EquipCompare and no other addon.
I'm not sure what to make of this exactly, but maybe if enough authors demanded that WoWMatrix display (in some form) a link to the official page of the addon, they might make this a universal feature. Whether that'd be good or bad is beyond this post
It is odd that it is a only a feature for your addon. Maybe they didn't want the work of finding the official sites/subpages for all their scrapped data?
I asked them to remove my addons unless they showed the author name and added a link to each project homepage to both their website and software lists. I've got the following answer :
Hi ____,
Thanks for contacting us.
You will be pleased to know that we are in fact
in the middle of implementing these features,
due to popular request.
We will be specifying the names of the authors
of ALL listed AddOns in the software as well as
on our website.
In addition, we will be linking to the project
page of each AddOn in the software (but not on
our website, to prevent visitor confusion since
we do not host any AddOns).
At the same time, this allows all end-users who
use WowMatrix to directly reach each AddOn's
project page if they wish to obtain support and
provide feedback.
Please confirm if this implementation would be
okay for you.
Best Regards,
Laurie
WowMatrix.com
I've got my addons removed anyway, since they don't fullfil what I request yet. Note they don't care about opposing the license your used or whatever. Ask them to remove your addon(s) and they will.
Interesting . . . I got an idea, why don't you host the addons yourselves and make it opt in? Hrmm . . . a good business model . . . no way that'd happen. If all they did was scrape the addons page once and a while looking for updates and dl the new version ONCE then it'd not be near as bad. Though still kinda shady.
In addition, we will be linking to the project
page of each AddOn in the software (but not on
our website, to prevent visitor confusion since
we do not host any AddOns).
At the same time, this allows all end-users who
use WowMatrix to directly reach each AddOn's
project page if they wish to obtain support and
provide feedback.
summary:
We add authors and links, so authors don't keep telling us to remove their addons (which would make our updater useless),
but we still make money with leeching bandwith from other sites.
P.S.: In addition this will keep those stupid support questions out of our mailbox...
We add authors and links, so authors don't keep telling us to remove their addons (which would make our updater useless),
but we still make money with leeching bandwith from other sites.
P.S.: In addition this will keep those stupid support questions out of our mailbox...
Bingo.
What they don't realize (yet) is that many authors will continue to have their addons removed for the sanity of the distribution sites.
& as a reminder @ authors, you can write into wowmatrix and have your addons removed from the listing. only takes about 2 emails. I figure this is a more productive way of killing this service off.
I was fully surprised to see that they have modified WoWMatrix so that when you right-click on EquipCompare in WoWMatrix, you get a popup menu with a single "Visit Official Page" link that opens EquipCompare's official page in your favourit webbrowser. The amuzing part is that this popup menu appears only for EquipCompare and no other addon.
I'm not sure what to make of this exactly, but maybe if enough authors demanded that WoWMatrix display (in some form) a link to the official page of the addon, they might make this a universal feature. Whether that'd be good or bad is beyond this post ;-)
This is most interesting yes. I am very surprised as well.
We add authors and links, so authors don't keep telling us to remove their addons (which would make our updater useless),
but we still make money with leeching bandwith from other sites.
P.S.: In addition this will keep those stupid support questions out of our mailbox...
They're providing the perfect application for the average dumbass and it's within their rights to include advertisements.
The real issue here is the CC, which I'm having a difficult time getting accustomed to. :rolleyes:
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Curse Premiumwowmods by Fin.
It indexes all major addon hosting sites.
It is clean/fast, easy for the everyday user, powerful for the advanced user (regexp filters for example).
It provides basic addon information, but directs you to the hosting sites for download.
It links to the addon page not the addon file.
That's what an addon updater (not a site updater) should look like.
It would be a great service and no one could object, authors, hosting sites or users.
The options are there.
Index the pages, provide meta-search capabilities but send the traffic back to the sites bearing the cost.
All generic updaters that have been mentioned in this and the wowi thread,
are guilty of leeching bandwidth off the addon hosting sites.
What sets Wowmatrix apart and paints a bullseye on their ass is that their attitude is a big "f_ck you"
to authors and addon hosts alike.
Developers of other updaters have a rapport with the community, their creators
are engaging in dialog, they would probably be willing to take steps to alleviate the problem.
Example: provide the link to the addon page, or links to the hosting sites in your updater,
seek out sponsorship options etc.
To recap the basic issues:
1. Hotlinking is bad (no matter who's doing it) - I won't go over why again, google it.
2. Making a batch downloader for yourself or using an adblocker is a totally different thing
than providing it as a "service" to the public and enabling hundreds and thousands
of users to leech off legitimate providers (in many occasions without even them knowing what they're doing)
3. Addon authors are entitled to choose the distribution method of their work (free for use has nothing to do with it)
and where they want to receive feedback.
4. If these parasites are allowed to flourish only 2 things can come of it.
- Addon hosting sites going to extreme measures to thwart leeching (which is in their rights)
and making life miserable for users (captcha, blocking referrers or a multitude of anti-leech methods available).
- Just deciding it's not worth the effort and addons moving to filefront/rapidshare, free repositories or going private.
I don't like any of these options, informing users and even peer-pressure is a means toward that end.
I do want the parasites to get the bad rep they deserve, I don't pretend neutrality.
If people's attitude is "lololol screw you 1-click updates" there's nothing to be said to that.
Enjoy it while it lasts (won't be for long - they probably thought wau would be forever too).
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Curse PremiumIf they one-time sold the client it would be somewhat different, because then they could argue that they charge for the development time of the client - though it still remained iffy because they rely on cost incurred to others to justify the attractiveness of the sell, but through advertising they get income proportional to use, which is proportional to expense (actual damage) incurred to another entity, namely those who actually provide the bandwidth. And this cost they are directly responsible for having caused, while bypassing the usually linked income of/for the competitor.
Similar things: Imagine you make web-page called new-flork tymes. It links to new york times articles but embeds them in new advertisements while causing full traffic cost and offering no salery compenstation to journalists to NYT, in fact even if it made local copies clearly there remains the issue of unfair business practice. Or, imagine mytoobs, which redoes the full youtube interface maybe in a more usable fashion but links to youtube videos directly but also provides independent new advertising.
Clearly all these are a problem of similar type. All these are interfering with normal economic relations between customers and providers - by incurring damages to the provider, while taking revenue from the customer.
The whole copyright/author angle seems to be a way weaker angle on this than the tort related to "causing bandwidth cost while bypassing original cost recovery". In fact youtube kind of relies on the "video is up until we get asked for it to be pulled" model but they don't systematically tort cnn by digitizing the channel 24/7, stripping all ads and putting in their own instead.
On a personal note, I don't really care about author credit. So to me the whole author credit things isn't anything that bothers me personally, but people's preferences vary. I can fully see that curse, wowi, wowui etc totally care. Wowmatrix isn't really incurring unfair cost to me, but I can see how they do it to those sites.
If wowmatrix negotiated a revenue backflow model with the sites, i.e. that income proportional to sites visited will be returned, I could see that working, even with some income remaining with wowmatrix for developing the software... but from what I read so far that hasn't happened/isn't happening. Of course that would totally depend on whether the ad revenue actually exceeds the bandwidth cost. If not, the whole model absolutely relies on hiding/offloading cost unfairly.
Of course the biggest issue imo is the stealing of bandwidth. If they hosted it themselves, I'd be ok with it.
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Curse PremiumI, as an addon author, have given curse.com & wowinterface.com the legal right to host, distribute and in effect make a profit off of hosting and distributing my addon in any means they deem is right. While still retaing the right to revoke this from the 2 sites, to an extent. However i have not authorized WoWMatrix to make profit off of my addon in any means what so ever. While i understand that they do not host the content they still link to it and make profit off it.
Now if they did a write up on the mod and supplied links to the hosting site to download it from, or even a direct link to download it from, it would be considered fair-use under copyright laws. However they are not. They are in common context of an updater program linking to my addon and making money off that. I am being violated because someone is making money off of my work.
Some would say that it's open source and the licence allows for that, infact mine does not. You must alter it and rename it, as it states I reserve the right over the proper name and officaial version. It might be slight of hand, but it still fishy.
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Curse PremiumJust sent them a mail.
I recently found out about WoWMatrix, the controversial issues surrounding it, the fact that my addon (EquipCompare) is available via WoWMatrix and that several authors successfully emailed them to ask their addons to be removed from WoWMatrix's list. I wasn't too happy about the situation either, so I decided to try a little experiment.
Instead of sending them an email asking them to remove my addon from the list, I have quoted them the following passage from EquipCompare's license terms:
"If you distribute or re-host this AddOn, either in a compilation or by itself, you must include a link to the AddOn's official page as the author is responsible for maintaining only the official page of the AddOn.",
and pointed out to them that they do not show a link to the official page anywhere, nor do they make it possible for a user to see the link in any way, and therefore they violate these terms. I have, rather egotistically, demanded that either they comply with the license terms or to remove my addon from WoWMatrix's list. I was aware that their updater program isn't designed to show author names/URLs/links to official pages, so I have fully expected them to just remove EquipCompare from the list, but this is not what happened.
I was fully surprised to see that they have modified WoWMatrix so that when you right-click on EquipCompare in WoWMatrix, you get a popup menu with a single "Visit Official Page" link that opens EquipCompare's official page in your favourit webbrowser. The amuzing part is that this popup menu appears only for EquipCompare and no other addon.
I'm not sure what to make of this exactly, but maybe if enough authors demanded that WoWMatrix display (in some form) a link to the official page of the addon, they might make this a universal feature. Whether that'd be good or bad is beyond this post ;-)
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Project AuthorI'm thoroughly confused about that...making a special case for one addon rather than making it the default for all. VERY odd.
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Curse PremiumIt is odd that it is a only a feature for your addon. Maybe they didn't want the work of finding the official sites/subpages for all their scrapped data?
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Curse PremiumI've got my addons removed anyway, since they don't fullfil what I request yet. Note they don't care about opposing the license your used or whatever. Ask them to remove your addon(s) and they will.
Interesting . . . I got an idea, why don't you host the addons yourselves and make it opt in? Hrmm . . . a good business model . . . no way that'd happen. If all they did was scrape the addons page once and a while looking for updates and dl the new version ONCE then it'd not be near as bad. Though still kinda shady.
We add authors and links, so authors don't keep telling us to remove their addons (which would make our updater useless),
but we still make money with leeching bandwith from other sites.
P.S.: In addition this will keep those stupid support questions out of our mailbox...
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Project AuthorBingo.
What they don't realize (yet) is that many authors will continue to have their addons removed for the sanity of the distribution sites.
This is most interesting yes. I am very surprised as well.
And yes, as Torhal said BINGO...
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Curse PremiumI don't find it surprising.
Neither do I. This stinks like the dog shit I stepped in the other day.