I'd love to be able to select alphas individually.. I understand how some addons work internally, and am willing to be a helpful tester (i.e. alphas), but other addons I dont want alphas.
A large part of the problem is google seems to have started a trend where it is ok to keep calling something beta forever... alpha should be for a small private test group, and not used by many, beta should be packaged up with a wider test group, but not the default for all users, and things should be released for the version that is best tested and ready to run... but you can see some projects that never make a release version, hence beta is now release to a lot of people and alpha is what should be beta etc... and now we need a prealpha cat.
i don't think anyone should be able to d/l alpha unless they are allowed by the author through SVN.
lets keep alpha what it is, completely unreleased code not supported by anyone.
i think the best way to correct this is:
1. only allow release on curse. this will force authors to release if they want their addon on curse.
2. allow curse client to select beta, if user chooses.
3. allow authors to restrict alpha access on wowace. maybe have a test group in addition to authors for each project.
I have to second this. I never, ever, ever want users downloading alphas for my stuff. I don't care who they are. Edit: However, I think this is already possible. You can turn off packaging for alphas at the project level. Bingo.
I have to second this. I never, ever, ever want users downloading alphas for my stuff. I don't care who they are. Edit: However, I think this is already possible. You can turn off packaging for alphas at the project level. Bingo.
Sometimes you can't see the forest through the trees.
Yes, you are right. And i have done this. The only problem is, how do you give wanted Alpha testers the addon?
Users who enable alpha support on the Curse Client should only be doing so if they want to help with the testing stages. If they do so otherwise, it's their fault when their shit breaks.
Actually, users who enable alphas in the Curse Client (CC) still only get Betas and Releases because the site back-end doesn't seem to support pushing WowAce alphas via the CC (yet?).
A large part of the problem is google seems to have started a trend where it is ok to keep calling something beta forever... alpha should be for a small private test group, and not used by many, beta should be packaged up with a wider test group, but not the default for all users, and things should be released for the version that is best tested and ready to run... but you can see some projects that never make a release version, hence beta is now release to a lot of people and alpha is what should be beta etc... and now we need a prealpha cat.
Indeed. This is half of what made WAU the norm before - a huge chunk of authors were using the WowAce SVN as a release point and not pushing anything to release sites, so users got used to dealing with alpha-quality code as a tradeoff (which was certainly better than not getting the addons at all).
I have to second this. I never, ever, ever want users downloading alphas for my stuff. I don't care who they are. Edit: However, I think this is already possible. You can turn off packaging for alphas at the project level. Bingo.
All that does is push away testers who don't care enough to checkout your addon via SVN, since CC users can't get alphas at the moment anyways. Most users are going to go to Curse to find your addon, and they won't see alphas there; users who go to the WowAce project page are probably intentionally looking for alpha versions.
Of course that will all change if/when the CC gets the ability to pull down alphas.
On a general note: curmudgeonly anti-user viewpoints that propose stomping on testers' abilities to easily work with authors to improve their addons really rub me the wrong way, and make me redirect my testing efforts to addons from more community-minded authors :p In the end, it's your loss to alienate people who just want to help.
On a general note: curmudgeonly anti-user viewpoints that stomp on testers' ability to easily work with authors to improve their addons really rub me the wrong way, and make me redirect my testing efforts to addons from more tester-friendly authors :p
For my part, alphas are never intended for outside testing. Betas are. See, every commit to source control gets labeled as an "alpha" automatically. But I don't want every commit I make to be tested. When I'm ready for someone else to test, I'll flag it as "beta". If commits by default weren't labeled "alpha", I'd use both "alpha" and "beta" for testable builds and testers could choose their level of participation. Since "alpha" is mandatory for all commits, I can't use the designation for anything.
You would literally be wasting my time if you reported bugs on some random commit I made. When I'm satisfied that the code is good enough to be tested, I'll tag it. This isn't curmudgeonly at all. It's the way software development works.
For my part, alphas are never intended for outside testing. Betas are. See, every commit to source control gets labeled as an "alpha" automatically. But I don't want every commit I make to be tested. When I'm ready for someone else to test, I'll flag it as "beta". If commits by default weren't labeled "alpha", I'd use both "alpha" and "beta" for testable builds and testers could choose their level of participation. Since "alpha" is mandatory for all commits, I can't use the designation for anything.
You would literally be wasting my time if you reported bugs on some random commit I made. When I'm satisfied that the code is good enough to be tested, I'll tag it. This isn't curmudgeonly at all. It's the way software development works.
well said.
It was my impression that WoWAce is a developers community, not a users community.
I will say, the moment Alphas become accessible via the client, i will move my repository to somewhere that lets me develop my way.
Hunterz, I never said i did not anyone looking at it. Anyone already can download any code using SVN. I am fine with that. I am not fine with ALpha being downloaded by a client set by a user who wants bleeding edge and is gonna complain when my alpha code overwrites their release and they lose all their data. That is just....well.....dumb.
Anyway to label the commits as 'devel' then have the abilty to build alpha packages that are visiable to people who are logged in , and then have beta and release as they are now but release be what end users at curse see?
For my part, alphas are never intended for outside testing. Betas are. See, every commit to source control gets labeled as an "alpha" automatically. But I don't want every commit I make to be tested. When I'm ready for someone else to test, I'll flag it as "beta". If commits by default weren't labeled "alpha", I'd use both "alpha" and "beta" for testable builds and testers could choose their level of participation. Since "alpha" is mandatory for all commits, I can't use the designation for anything.
You would literally be wasting my time if you reported bugs on some random commit I made. When I'm satisfied that the code is good enough to be tested, I'll tag it. This isn't curmudgeonly at all. It's the way software development works.
Dont know enough about svn yet, but maybe devl should be done on a branch then merged back to get this same effect?
Anyway to label the commits as 'devel' then have the abilty to build alpha packages that are visiable to people who are logged in , and then have beta and release as they are now but release be what end users at curse see?
See, this would solve the problem I have. "Alpha" in the software dev world is designed for testing. "Alpha" in the CurseForge world is just every commit. Fix that, and I will have no problem with people testing alphas, because that's actually what they'd be.
It was my impression that WoWAce is a developers community, not a users community.
I will say, the moment Alphas become accessible via the client, i will move my repository to somewhere that lets me develop my way.
lol, actually I have started to set up my own repository as I am find that easier to do then figure out how to work with the curseforge one, it rejects all my attempts to put source code in saying I need to set some eol attribute, but I can find no way to do so till after it is checked in, maybe I should make it available to others also when I am done.
See, this would solve the problem I have. "Alpha" in the software dev world is designed for testing. "Alpha" in the CurseForge world is just every commit. Fix that, and I will have no problem with people testing alphas, because that's actually what they'd be.
I will say, the moment Alphas become accessible via the client, i will move my repository to somewhere that lets me develop my way.
Indeed, that will change things. I'm sure Kaelten will give you options though, as WowAce is indeed intended on some level to be developer-centric.
Hunterz, I never said i did not anyone looking at it. Anyone already can download any code using SVN. I am fine with that.
I will not go out of my way to checkout an addon from the SVN in order to test it because I prefer to test many addons at once and maintaining that many checkouts becomes unwieldy.
I am not fine with ALpha being downloaded by a client set by a user who wants bleeding edge and is gonna complain when my alpha code overwrites their release and they lose all their data. That is just....well.....dumb.
Yes, it's definitely dumb to want bleeding edge versions if you don't know what you're doing. I, however, do know what I'm getting into, so I'm throwing my two cents in :)
See, this would solve the problem I have. "Alpha" in the software dev world is designed for testing. "Alpha" in the CurseForge world is just every commit. Fix that, and I will have no problem with people testing alphas, because that's actually what they'd be.
No, that just wastes time. The problem is that every commit shouldn't be alpha, it should be nothing.
It sounds like you're just fussing over semantics. Either developing on a branch or disabling alpha packaging will effectively accomplish what you want. It sounds like you'd prefer the latter; just don't forget to push betas and releases...
lol, actually I have started to set up my own repository as I am find that easier to do then figure out how to work with the curseforge one, it rejects all my attempts to put source code in saying I need to set some eol attribute, but I can find no way to do so till after it is checked in, maybe I should make it available to others also when I am done.
We're getting further and further from topic here, heh. If you use Tortoise, just right click the parent folder of all your code, click TortoiseSVN -> Properties. Click New... Pick "svn:eol-style" from the drop down. Under property value, type "native". Check "apply property recursively". Click OK twice. Do this again any time you add a new file, as the pre-commit hooks will complain.
Yes, it solves my problems perfectly. I'm not really fussing, I just don't want too many people thinking that alphas should always be testable, since they're not alphas in the true sense of the word.
I will not go out of my way to checkout an addon from the SVN in order to test it because I prefer to test many addons at once and maintaining that many checkouts becomes unwieldy.
I agree, it is. there needs to be some way to resolve this. maybe a d/l key in the client? developer sets this and gives to "Alpha" testers....just thinking aloud.
Yes, it's definitely dumb to want bleeding edge versions if you don't know what you're doing. I, however, do know what I'm getting into, so I'm throwing my two cents in :)
and i would welcome you but not the guy who just checks some box so he can get the latest and greatest without understanding.
Yes, it solves my problems perfectly. I'm not really fussing, I just don't want too many people thinking that alphas should always be testable, since they're not alphas in the true sense of the word.
If I were forgetting this, do you think I'd be fussing? Of course I tag things correctly. :D
It's worth noting that there are many development philosophies being employed by the various WowAce authors. Some don't even push any betas or releases at all, and expect people to feed off of the WowAce project pages or directly off of the SVN. Some go to the opposite extreme and push Releases but don't let alphas get packaged at all, even on the WowAce project page.
My personal approach (mostly via FuBar2Broker maintenance experience) is to only commit stuff as an alpha that's test-worthy, then push betas/releases after I've received positive community feedback.
I can see the usefulness of more granular checkins on a larger project though, because it's important to checkpoint your work.
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Curse Premiumlets keep alpha what it is, completely unreleased code not supported by anyone.
i think the best way to correct this is:
1. only allow release on curse. this will force authors to release if they want their addon on curse.
2. allow curse client to select beta, if user chooses.
3. allow authors to restrict alpha access on wowace. maybe have a test group in addition to authors for each project.
just my .02
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Curse PremiumSometimes you can't see the forest through the trees.
Yes, you are right. And i have done this. The only problem is, how do you give wanted Alpha testers the addon?
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Curse PremiumMake them get an SVN client? Hehe.
Actually, users who enable alphas in the Curse Client (CC) still only get Betas and Releases because the site back-end doesn't seem to support pushing WowAce alphas via the CC (yet?).
Indeed. This is half of what made WAU the norm before - a huge chunk of authors were using the WowAce SVN as a release point and not pushing anything to release sites, so users got used to dealing with alpha-quality code as a tradeoff (which was certainly better than not getting the addons at all).
I don't think authors should be putting something on a public, community-driven SVN repo if they don't want anyone else looking at it.
All that does is push away testers who don't care enough to checkout your addon via SVN, since CC users can't get alphas at the moment anyways. Most users are going to go to Curse to find your addon, and they won't see alphas there; users who go to the WowAce project page are probably intentionally looking for alpha versions.
Of course that will all change if/when the CC gets the ability to pull down alphas.
On a general note: curmudgeonly anti-user viewpoints that propose stomping on testers' abilities to easily work with authors to improve their addons really rub me the wrong way, and make me redirect my testing efforts to addons from more community-minded authors :p In the end, it's your loss to alienate people who just want to help.
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Curse PremiumFor my part, alphas are never intended for outside testing. Betas are. See, every commit to source control gets labeled as an "alpha" automatically. But I don't want every commit I make to be tested. When I'm ready for someone else to test, I'll flag it as "beta". If commits by default weren't labeled "alpha", I'd use both "alpha" and "beta" for testable builds and testers could choose their level of participation. Since "alpha" is mandatory for all commits, I can't use the designation for anything.
You would literally be wasting my time if you reported bugs on some random commit I made. When I'm satisfied that the code is good enough to be tested, I'll tag it. This isn't curmudgeonly at all. It's the way software development works.
well said.
It was my impression that WoWAce is a developers community, not a users community.
I will say, the moment Alphas become accessible via the client, i will move my repository to somewhere that lets me develop my way.
Hunterz, I never said i did not anyone looking at it. Anyone already can download any code using SVN. I am fine with that. I am not fine with ALpha being downloaded by a client set by a user who wants bleeding edge and is gonna complain when my alpha code overwrites their release and they lose all their data. That is just....well.....dumb.
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Curse PremiumDont know enough about svn yet, but maybe devl should be done on a branch then merged back to get this same effect?
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Curse PremiumSee, this would solve the problem I have. "Alpha" in the software dev world is designed for testing. "Alpha" in the CurseForge world is just every commit. Fix that, and I will have no problem with people testing alphas, because that's actually what they'd be.
No, that just wastes time. The problem is that every commit shouldn't be alpha, it should be nothing.
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Curse Premiumlol, actually I have started to set up my own repository as I am find that easier to do then figure out how to work with the curseforge one, it rejects all my attempts to put source code in saying I need to set some eol attribute, but I can find no way to do so till after it is checked in, maybe I should make it available to others also when I am done.
/agree
Indeed, that will change things. I'm sure Kaelten will give you options though, as WowAce is indeed intended on some level to be developer-centric.
I will not go out of my way to checkout an addon from the SVN in order to test it because I prefer to test many addons at once and maintaining that many checkouts becomes unwieldy.
Yes, it's definitely dumb to want bleeding edge versions if you don't know what you're doing. I, however, do know what I'm getting into, so I'm throwing my two cents in :)
It sounds like you're just fussing over semantics. Either developing on a branch or disabling alpha packaging will effectively accomplish what you want. It sounds like you'd prefer the latter; just don't forget to push betas and releases...
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Curse PremiumWe're getting further and further from topic here, heh. If you use Tortoise, just right click the parent folder of all your code, click TortoiseSVN -> Properties. Click New... Pick "svn:eol-style" from the drop down. Under property value, type "native". Check "apply property recursively". Click OK twice. Do this again any time you add a new file, as the pre-commit hooks will complain.
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Curse PremiumYes, it solves my problems perfectly. I'm not really fussing, I just don't want too many people thinking that alphas should always be testable, since they're not alphas in the true sense of the word.
If I were forgetting this, do you think I'd be fussing? Of course I tag things correctly. :D
I agree, it is. there needs to be some way to resolve this. maybe a d/l key in the client? developer sets this and gives to "Alpha" testers....just thinking aloud.
and i would welcome you but not the guy who just checks some box so he can get the latest and greatest without understanding.
It's worth noting that there are many development philosophies being employed by the various WowAce authors. Some don't even push any betas or releases at all, and expect people to feed off of the WowAce project pages or directly off of the SVN. Some go to the opposite extreme and push Releases but don't let alphas get packaged at all, even on the WowAce project page.
My personal approach (mostly via FuBar2Broker maintenance experience) is to only commit stuff as an alpha that's test-worthy, then push betas/releases after I've received positive community feedback.
I can see the usefulness of more granular checkins on a larger project though, because it's important to checkpoint your work.
i checkin frequently so i have access from more than one location.
so if i was at.......uhhh.....the....library (not work...never at work) i can update and code in my spare time.