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    posted a message on Ace2 - Ace3 - Rock
    Quote from taalas »

    The same discussion over and over again...why do you even bother?

    It's not as if it is any difference to you on what kind of framework the addons you use are based on. Just try to convince yourself that CKKnight knows what he's doing, the Ace3 team knows what they are doing...just install the addons you want to use, let the libs from auto dependencies roll by and don't worry...


    Well actually it does make quite the difference. When you run addons based on multiple frameworks then those frameworks will most likely use their preferred set of libraries. So when multiple frameworks use 2 different libraries which are doing the same stuff essentially, then code from those libraries will obviously register for the same event handlers, creating "duplicate" handlers, each running their code, to accomplish the same stuff.
    Given that those two libraries actually do the same things this amount's to a 100% increase in impact on CPU and memory usage. Correct me if I'm wrong.

    Essentially what I'm saying is that two frameworks might use code that does the same stuff, increasing load on CPU and memory to a point where performance isn't acceptable anymore. And from my observation so far this actually hold's true because my game runs with +10 to +15 frames per second as soon as I disable all of CKKs addons, especially in a raid situation.

    So to me as an end user, what you're saying is just not true as long as my FPS graphs don't prove otherwise.
    Posted in: General Chat
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    posted a message on Antagonist, quartz, chronometer, classtimer, necb
    Quote from HunterZ »

    The latest version of DoTimer has syncing functionality removed because it was extremely spammy on the addon communication channel(s) and the author decided it wasn't worth it.


    That's good, but as I mentioned it doesn't seem to be the only problem. Even when running just a single timer CPU usage per second can go as high as 21% (at least on my two machines here). IMO this is totally not acceptable for an addon that does just a few timerbars. I just switched to ClassTimer and so far that one seems to be happy with just a tiny fraction of the CPU-time used by DoTimer.

    As I said I think DoTimer is a very nice AddOn but from my (admittedly mediocre) experience with LUA the codebase is just way too heavy to provide the performance needed by some users.
    I guess if you're running a fat dualcore machine with mucho RAM and an overall decent amount of spiffyness you won't really notice but that doesn't really explain the amount of CPU-time used by that AddOn. Personally, I blame the "multi target" functionality. Detecting targets not natively provided by the WoW-API just asks for sh**loads of for-loops and loop-ridden event handling routines. But then again that's just my limited experience with LUA talking here.
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Antagonist, quartz, chronometer, classtimer, necb
    DoTimer is unique in that it combines the data from all the clients that run it, but from what I hear, it is an evul spammer on the AddOn channel, and it may be heavier on the resouces than most other mods.


    This is very true and not even related to AddOn channel spam only. The thing has some great functionality but it's an evil CPU-hog.
    So yeah... DoTimer is great in terms of functionality but if you're looking for any kind of performance you need to stay away from it :)

    Can't even blame the developer I guess. Thinking that with the way the WoW-API works you can really only get some of that data through a lot of backdoors and workarounds (read: for-loops and massive event handlers) and that amounts to a lot of CPU time wasted for trivial tasks.

    Personally I'm going to have to look for another AddOn to track my dots or even code one myself as I find most of the ones out there to be just way too heavy on the system and/or way too overloaded with features.
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Rock/Ace3 - Regarding drama and functionality.
    Quote from Seerah »

    You, as a user, should not care one ounce of what's inside your addons and what they are using. All you should care about is that they do what you want and that they do it well.

    Hmmm... I see.

    Well the problem is: I only ever noticed this thread while searching the forums for reasons for why my game's performance is completely messed up since I updated my addons yesterday. First thing I notice is Rock (I kinda like that approach), next thing I notice is that in raid my frames drop to 5 when I run with addons (I kinda hate that approach :)). So yeah, it does seem play a role I guess.
    Please don't get this wrong, I don't want to flame or anything, just tellin' the facts so to speak.

    If you can't handle it, then find something else.

    This is something many people say until they find themselves all alone. I'm a developer myself and I know full well where you're coming from, but lines like those really only sound good until they become reality.

    Posted in: Frameworks
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    posted a message on Rock/Ace3 - Regarding drama and functionality.
    So just to get all this right:

    You guys have essentially split up and are now working on 3 different programming frameworks for addon creation right? So what was the Ace2 team is now a bunch of guys working on three different approaches competing with each other?

    Please don't get this wrong, just trying to understand what's going on here.
    Posted in: Frameworks
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    posted a message on DKPmon & Bidder v2.0
    Quote from Morgalm »

    You might be surprised how easily people will adopt a simple little mod like Bidder if they are given a choice....use it or you aren't eligible for loot.

    I'm sorry to say... but this is pretty much blackmailing your members to get them to do something. That's just not an option I'd consider at all unless it's 100% mandatory.


    I am in a very large guild and have had very few problems (it's not bidder but same idea) with people being able to install mods. When there is a problem you help them. Think I helped 5-10 people out of 250.

    This is an example of the unnecessary maintentance I mentioned. Using a good chat interface you wouldn't have to help anybody, unless you're the raid's loot master who simply announces the needed chat commands during loot distribution to people who might not know them.
    It's cool that you haven't had any problems and I hope it stays that way. But as a matter of fact, one bug in bidder (or similar addons) is all it takes for an entire raid to have to log out of the game and do updates, if available, in order to continue the loot process as desired.

    Kelem's not the DKPmon/Bidder author.

    Yes I just noticed. Sorry about that :)

    I will reiterate, though: I did release DKPmon, Bidder, and all my DKP system modules under the GPL precisely to make it easy for people to legally fork the addon if they wish.

    I'd love to do that. I just don't have the time to do it :(
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on DKPmon & Bidder v2.0
    Quote from Kelem »

    If you have to worry about people screwing with addons to try to manipulate things they don't need to, or not want to run a super simplistic addon that has no known conflicts.. you have other things to worry about.


    That's a matter of opinion. Personally, I have witnessed just too many MMOGs and what the players do in them to put any kind of trust in anyone except for the people I know personally in RL. To be honest I'd consider anyone not sharing that opinion naive and as a matter of fact I've seen these people getting screwed over so many times now it's not even funny. IMO you just can't trust anonymous strangers in the web, escpecially not in games.
    Furthermore, I'd never blame people for not wanting to run an extra addOn, escpecially not when said addOn is only used to provide functionality that can be provided by other means. Addons eat resources and require maintenance. You can not blame people for not wanting them in their game. It's their game. You don't have to share their opinion (I certainly don't), but blaming them or demanding them to change their ways is useless and intolerant IMO.


    As a guild leader, there should always be things that are required, such as a bossmod of some form. If people can update and get that running, you can have them make bidder work as well.


    Bossmods and KTM as two prime examples provide functionality that is considered pretty much mandatory by any guild, and this functionality can not be provided by any other means. They are not optional parts of a system. Hence, the comparison doesn't fit.


    Running a large guild has nothing to do with it, it's running any guild at all.
    And the larger the guild, the bigger the problem with a chat interface as it would become overly spammy with people checking points/loot non stop


    I concur yet again. Making sure that 10 people run and understand the newest Bidder is easy. Making sure that 150 people do the same is a bound to become a royal p.i.t.a. at some point sooner rather than later.
    I don't see whisper-spam as an issue either. Both game and player running DKPMon can handle that much easier than the hassle of making sure that an entire guild runs yet another addOn.

    Whatever, I guess we can stop at this point as I see you've pretty much made clear that your concepts are set in stone and your not going to change your opinion. That's fine, it's your addOn :) Good luck and happy coding ;)
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on DKPmon & Bidder v2.0
    Quote from Eraslin »

    Quote from Keltzed »

    I've been experimenting with DKPmon and its FCZS bidding modules, and I'm impressed. My raid group (Wildly Inept Raiding, www.wildlyinept.org) uses fixed-cost zero-sum, and I'm working on getting DKPmon set up to work with our loot tables/etc.

    I was wondering if there's an option to make DKPmon list the DKP cost of each item when I open bids, something like [Maulgar's Warhelm] (550 DKP) instead of just listing each item. I know that anyone running Bidder will be able to see the DKP cost of each item, but our group has a number of people who don't like running mods, so there's no chance of getting everyone in the raid to run Bidder.


    Alas, such an option doesn't currently exist. Adding something like that might be a little tricky, but I think about how it might be done.

    Otherwise, not having everyone in the raid running Bidder might make your life a little more difficult. If there's any way to convince those people who don't like mods to run this one tiny one (and Bidder is very tiny), I'd try if I were you. The alternative is them sending you tells every time that they want an item, and you entering it manually. Furthermore, they'll have no way to look up their points in-game, so they'll likely be driving you nuts asking you about that too...


    And all of that could be solved with a decent chat-interface with which you can interact with DKPMon even when not using Bidder. Forcing people to use addOns to stuff that has been done by one or another means is bad practice. You just don't do that as a good guild leader.

    Also when you're running like a really big guild Bidder is bound to cause boatloads of problems. What when people don't update their Bidder regularly? What if they modifiy it somehow to screw things up? What if they are just too dense to set it up properly? What if they don't understand and misuse the standby-fuctionality? The list goes on...

    Basically what I'm trying to say is: Things like Bidder just aren't an option when you're trying to run a big guild and don't have the time to take care of each and every single one of your 150+ members just to make sure they're running Bidder and use it correctly.

    Please consider a chat interface to DKPMon. I guarantee you it'll instantly turn it from a convencience addOn to a no-brainer must have for every guild out there just like KTM or CTRA or what have you...
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on DKPmon & Bidder v2.0
    Quote from Eraslin »

    ...
    All that, just so that a few people don't have to run a tiny addon which is actually easier to use than whispers. (Bidder can even be disabled between raids with "/bidder standby" so it doesn't even take up fubar/minimap space)

    I'm sorry if that sounds harsh. It's just so against the design vision that I have for DKPmon that I'm not even considering it.


    Then by all means stick to your design. No hard feelings man. Allow me to say though (and please don't get this wrong, just trying to provide some constructive criticism):
    I think the requirement for every single member of a guild to install an addOn that is in reality not neccessary is really bad application design on your part. I think DKPMon could be a lot more successful if your just got rid of bidder altogether and focused on DKPMon as that is really the core of your addOn's functionality and usefulness in my opinion.

    Regardless of that: Good luck with your work :)
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on Buffalo2
    Nimbal you should really go to pure bugfixing mode on this addOn. There's a lot of problems with the buff display. Buffs are not added/removed without errors. Sometimes they don't show up at all or get removed for no logical reason. They get their icons and timers swapped around, etc etc. I believe there are many problems in your event handling methods which cause both timers and icons to be repeatedly assigned to the wrong positions.

    I really like the concept of your addOn but atm it just too bug-ridden to be of any use. I hope you get it sorted out soon.
    Posted in: General AddOns
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    posted a message on DKPmon & Bidder v2.0
    Would it be possible for you to write a chat interface to DKPmon to eliminate the requirement for raid members to install Bidder? What I'm thinking of is a way to check DKP, bid on items, etc by using chat, not Bidder. For example to check DKP one could whisper "!myDKP" to whoever is running DKPmon in the raid and have your DKP displayed that way. "!bid 150" could be used to bid on an item.

    Having all our people install and maintain yet another addOn is too much of a killer for us right now, but we'd really like to use DKPmon.
    Posted in: General AddOns
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