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    posted a message on Categoriezed/Sorting/Awesome OneBag++
    Quote from "tekkub" »
    Well first and foremost, I think modules (extentions of the mod, all part of the same mod, the mod functions fine if they're not there but they are there by default) makes perfect sense. This is how most of my mods have become. In PT the tradeskills and each "superset" of sets is it's own module. You didn't go the module route though, you went the plugin route (seperate addons entirely). I completely disagree with that choice because I feel the whole needed option can be coverd in a half dozen modules (Pt, tooltip, user-defined... blah blah blah)...

    I know I sound like an ass, okey I know I am an ass... it's just we've waited for a long time (I started PT after the last version of this mod was posted up for trying out)... maybe I expected more to have happened in that time? On the surface this still looks like the same mod. I guess I'm just being whiney cause I expected PT to get slipped in there already is all.

    Oh and for the record, I do like the idea of definitions being seperate from the core code, I just think you need to make them all modules of the same program. Drop the plugin design route and aim for a modularized single addon. Heck, I might even stop being a whiney bitch and write a few modules for you (PT and tooltip). I mean, PT support is so trivial... well that's the whole reason I think modules make more sense than plugins! The basic modules I pointed out are all rather small, it just doesn't warrent being o seperate plugin. Plugins would still be possible, but make your mod should only be one mod ^^

    If you want to take over InvSort, feel free. But I *HATE* mods that come with multiple sub directories that you can delete if you don't want sub-parts. That was one of the reasons I decided not to use KC_Items. I absolutely detest it. If you have 5 different concepts, give me 5 mods, let me pick what I want at the getgo. Don't make me re-download the whole fucking thing every time you update one sub module.

    There is absolutely no way I'll work on a mod that's modularized the way you want, and it's just a semantic difference. Offering 5 downloads for 5 mods that work well together instead of offering 1 with 5 sub directories that you can delete doesn't change how anything inside is implemented. So if it really bugs you that much, just take InvSort, and rock it. It's designed to be both AutoBar and a sorted inventory, and I bet it can even handle that other ammo thing you wanted, but i don't know what that is... ;) So it's everything PT was designed to help.

    As for "PT being slipped in there" -- honestly, I don't know why you expected PT to be an integrated part of it just because you made it. As you've said a hundred times -- the PT/IS connection is remarkably simple. I'm writing IS, not PT, and connecting them is very easy. So I'm working on getting IS capability working. You know. That XML crap you hate? I hate it too. Maintaining stupid lists, displaying items right, giving the end-user the power to move things around and have detached and attached groups, and display the right numbers, and not get lost off the side of the screen when you resize, and bank support, and not be too memory inefficient... Gee. I'm sorry I didn't spend the time connecting PT to the mod as well. Next time, I'll do that before I even have it displaying items, to make sure you don't feel like your work is going unappreciated. Sorry if I sound bitter, but it's really quite obnoxious how you've been telling me to use your idea of how a mod design should be instead of my own and how I haven't fully incorporated your work before I even get mine to a basic stable release. Seriously. If you want to write this mod, go ahead. I'm ONLY doing it because Ramble's in school and I absolutely hate every alternative. I don't want to write this. I don't want to maintain it. I want to go play WoW with it. And when I do? I'll be using the PT rules. So I'm either going to write a single mod with a PT requirement, or I'll write a very basic mod with plugins. I'm not writing a modular system with subdirectories. I'm not even willing to USE those on principle, so I'm not going to write one. Stop asking.

    Now how is PT helpful to this? Well using those things you defined....

    So, we need:
    a rule type. -- The PT set
    a way to identify up to two icons. -- Uhm, why not just use an icon from the set automaticaly? save it if you need, pull one out of GetItemInfo, whatever
    a complex definition system for what is contained in a rule. -- no need for complexity, PT tells you a simple yes/no if it's in the set
    a sorting system. -- Provided automatically with the values from PT, if applicable

    You didn't really read what I wrote, did you. :P

    a way to identify icons - "just use an icon from the set" ? Because the end user might not want his enchanting set icon to look like a dream dust? What if he doesn't have any items from the set, and doesn't use KC_Items? He can't get the icon? So it's just blank until he gets one? Then I have to store the icon it uses? Or does it go blank again if its empty? And change as they change items? Or are icons stored in PT? (That would go against your "Efficiency" thing though right? :))

    a complex definition system for what is contained - PT tells you yes or no for a single category concept. I understand that you love PT and think it's the end-all be-all of all categorization concepts, but I'm not sure I agree. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe PT is every category everyone on the planet would ever want, with just a few items falling in the wrong places for a few people. Who knows. But PT doesn't provide grouping of categories, or "things in one category and not in another," etc. so there's still a complex combination of rules. EngInventory has one of the better solutions I can think of to this problem, and I'm not sure the entirely modular idea I am currently working on does, you're right. But Pt isn't a solution to the problem either, there's still the same problem that InvSort has to deal with.

    a sorting system - again with the thinking PT is the end-all be-all. Some people would like their mana potions from weakest to strongest, some from strongest to weakest. Some people like potions alphabetical. Some people don't like it when their bags sort. Sure, that's just 4 options I could give every bag. Some people like equipment sorted by item slot then level, some people like it sorted by level, some alphabetically, some by rarity... You don't want PT to provide every possible sorting option, and I don't want to try to guess how everyone would sort, nor do I want to make the interface overly complex with sorting options everywhere for everything. If I just said "level" as a sorting option for everything, how would it sort recipes, which are all level 1? So that doesn't make sense. How a given set of items is sorted should generally depend on the set.

    Or, I can do what Eng and ABF and everyone else did and say "f. that sh*t" and just sort alphabetically or by PT...

    You've got to remember not to get too complex here, as you said AdvBag's config was scary. EngInv's honestly isn't, it's the code behind it I didn't like. I look at my EngInv config and every set definition comes down to a single rule. If users want a really complex class it really seems that a user-defined, add items one-at-a-time set is what they need. The power of your design is that items will fall into many categories, so why make filters overly complex?

    That's a good point. I think basic "or" and "not" functionality (slightly more advanced than Eng's) with Pt might make for a sweet system. So now you've got me wavering again. PT required, otherwise it's just OneBag, inefficiently done vs. my current design. And to be honest, maintaining my current design is probably more work than just making it PT required. So, next free time I have, I'll take a look at PT and see if I can come up with a different design idea that I like that incorporates PT better. Deal?

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categoriezed/Sorting/Awesome OneBag++
    Stylpe - sorry, check out Sanity here:

    That's the one I was thinking of, not Possessions.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categoriezed/Sorting/Awesome OneBag++
    Okay, here's a few points that need to be addressed:
    One thing I *REALLY* don't want is a big clunky UI to set up new categories. I hate that about ABF. The reason I originally designed it as modular is because there's no good way to make up "new rules" unless you're really interested in getting your hands dirty. The average end-user wants to log in, pick some bag types they care about, force certain items/exceptions by moving items into and out of bags, and that's it. Normal people don't want to go "okay, I want a bag that includes blue or rarer items, and a bag that includes green armor and weapons, and a bag that includes all my alchemy supplies, except health and mana pots, and a bag..." -- they want someone else to come up with good bag ideas, then to see a mod described as "this mod gives you options for trade skill bags" and to download that if they care about them.

    Learning how to properly use a huge clunky complex rules system for bags is nearly as bad as learning lua, and half the people who would learn the complex rules probably already know lua. and most people are going for similar bag concepts (ex: PT bags). That's why I decided that a simple "is the item in bag b, slot s in you rule?" function definition was the best way to do it. It's simple lua to understand, doesn't require much extra work, etc.

    In coding the system, I realized there's some extra information:
    Is this a rule that summarizes information (empty slots, auto-bar-like functionality, etc), or is this a rule that shows you a bag? Both work the same way, one rule could provide both options, etc. So you need a way to say which type of rule a new rule is. Summary, Normal, or Both.
    If it's normal, it needs an icon for the icon bar and the frame. So you need a way to specify the icon path. And I don't want to do what ABF did, and provide 600 icons, so if you want a custom icon, you'd have to include that is an addon anyway.
    If it's a summary view, it needs an icon to indicate which summary it is when it's empty (if it has items in it, it uses the first item's icon so you know what you'd use if you clicked on it.) So you need to include a way to set the summary view icon.
    You need a way to describe what's in the bag. Some people might just was "/is addptrule food" but someone else might want "/is addptrule food and water" and someone else might want "/is addrule potions and not (mana potions or healing potions)" ... and now you're talking a complex logic parser, or a complex gui, to provide the PT grouping systems someone might want. Or you need an "/is alterrule rulename add/remove :type:"

    So you want to provide all the options you expect people to want to use either as defaults on, or with a single "/is toggle foodandwater" and "/is toggle buffpotions". This is another reason I did it the way I did -- let someone who has the time and desire to come up with good ideas come up with them, make them powerful, and provide a simple access method for end users.

    Furthermore, you also need to know how the user wants something sorted. Alphabetically, by level, by set, by type, by heal value, by rarity, in the order you found it, etc, etc...

    So, we need:
    a rule type.
    a way to identify up to two icons.
    a complex definition system for what is contained in a rule.
    a sorting system.

    How do you think we should approach this? I don't want complex series of /commands like Visor, I don't want a complex bloated UI like ABF... Perhaps something like EngInventory? Here, let me discuss:
    "/is newsummary Rulename Iconpath" (or newnormal, or newboth, with two iconpaths)
    makes a new empty rule that uses the summary view. (or normal, or both, obviously)

    Now, you have the normal UI. If you RIGHT-click the icon or the summary button, you get a context-sensative menu that lists all the concepts the system knows about.
    For instance:
    Level 1:
    NormalInfo ->
    PT Info ->
    TooltipInfo ->

    Level 2:
    Pt Info->
    Healing Potions
    Mana Potions
    other categories... etc...

    Now you can use that to check and uncheck the various concepts to make a rule. Everything that is checked is OR'd together:
    Healing Potions OR Mana Potions etc...
    Followed by an AND NOT (...) for anything that you put an X next to. ...?

    That still seems kinda complex, but relatively straightforward. Still, making new rules requires the end user to know what the icon path they want is...

    So, what's the proper way to do this? I mean, I could write exactly the default rules that *I* want, and just let people set up exceptions however they want, but the goal is to allow a powerful extensible system that lets everyone sort things the way THEY want.

    Which brings me back to not integrating PT in the first place. Just because *YOU* want PT doesn't mean everyone else will. And the PT rules will be just as easy to write and provide with the current system as they would if I integrated them.

    So now I'm wavering again. :)

    So, instead of telling me about how you think modules don't make sense, and how end uses shouldn't write Lua code, and how you designed something to make my life easier, even though end users don't write code, modules make perfect sense and are used in all the most popular mods, and I'd still be using everything you designed just as much whether or not it's in a module... why should PT be part of this? How do I solve the problem of a complex interface that can be made a hundred times less complex by limiting the people who actually use it to Lua modders, and providing a very simple striaghtforward end product for most users?

    "Here are the rules we made. You can add exceptions to them." And let people who have the time and effort and know-how and desire add new rules they can pick from. I honestly don't see any good argument for why it should be any other way. :) So, propose one, make it clear and make sense.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categoriezed/Sorting/Awesome OneBag++
    Okay, after writing a 30 page essay on a variety of subjects, such as:
    * I understand PT just fine, and I fully plan to make everything you want PT to provide easy to do.
    * You obviously don't understand my design of IS.
    * User's don't write lua, modders do. Users download mods. Once you or I writes the PT portion of IS, nobody else has to write any lua.
    * I hate the list I provided as well, but I didn't want to change Ramble's original rules, and he had them. :P ::points the blame away:: -- I think I'll remove those any way.

    I decided you may be right. The actual bulk required to integrate PT as an optional dependancy is minimal.

    But I'd just like to point out that "lots of things being implemented that you put into PT specifically to make this mod easy" -- nothing is being implemented that you put into PT. Simple, very basic categories are included right now for testing purposes. I would actually expect almost everyone who wants this mod to use PT as well, and use the PT categories module.

    Quote from "stylpe" »

    Speaking of bag mods, are there any that present the bags in a list? I mean, like:

    Check out Posessions here. -- it doesn't sort by category, it sorts alphabetically. But I bet you could do a few changes here and there and incorporate PT into that, and it'd rock.

    I'm going to start a new post here for design discussion.
    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categoriezed/Sorting/Awesome OneBag++
    Quote from "tekkub" »
    Two things the mod NEEDS, if they are not already in...

    Yeah. "if they are not already in..." doesn't apply here. Sets aren't specific to the Inventory Sorter itself. It's like BossPanel Addons. BossPanel == InvSort. BossPanel_Experience == InvSort_PriodicTable

    That way people can write their own categories that depend on other mods, like PeriodicTable,etc. I'll give you an example:
    InvSort_RegularExpressions = AceAddon:new(...)
        name="Tooltip RegEx Scan",
        description="Scans tooltips of items and includes them if the regular expression is found.",
        contains = function(index)
          tooltiptext = FunctionThatGetsTooltipText
          return strfind(tooltiptext, self.get("regex"))>0

    That, right there, along with a command-prompt to self.set("regex"), is an additional addon you could release that provides a RegEx functionality for a group. Guess what? Same with Periodic Table. Same with Wardrobe. Same with KC_Items. Etc, etc. You can release any categories you want. Or you can write your own little personal ones.

    The goal is for the basic package to include very basic, simple categories, then to let people introduce others. I plan to release the PeriodicTable one myself, as soon as the base system is stable, 'cause I'll be using that one. I won't use the Wardrobe one, but people requested it, so I'm hoping someone writes it. I will probably also release another one that adds AutoBar functionality...

    I cannot think of any items that will not be sortable using one of these methods.

    I can think of tons, and just because they are sortable doesn't mean that's how a user wants to sort them. I very actively sort blue and green equipment into multiple sets, I like to sort my alchemy stuff into: buyable parts, herbs, potions i make and don't use, potions i make and use, and mana/health pots. There's five categories you didn't list. :)

    Also, be aware that PT provides some useful data that, in conjunction with the itemLevel data from GetItemInfo, can be used to sort the displayed items by quality. For example, all food and water items have a HP/MP recovered value if the item is consumable by the player (raw foods don't have values, they're available for pet-feeding mods really).

    Yeah, I know. And if you'd like to write the PT categories, feel free. :) I'll write them to the best of my ability, using everything I can see in PT. In fact, I even plan to send you PMs when I'm writing them to make sure I get the most out of PT.

    Anywho, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE add PT support, it sholdn't bee too hard for you to do *grin* Do that and it's very VERY likly that I'll be abandoning EngInv very quickly, even for an alpha/beta mod.

    Yeah. Honestly, as soon as I'm comfortable using IS instead of another bag (which starting today, I think is fairly likely), I'll be writing at least a basic PT set.

    Oh and someone else suggested Bank sort on WoWI, I wholeheartedly agree. My bank is such a mess nowadays! And from the LUA side it's no different, just the bank uses bags -1, 5-10 (or is it 11?) and the data is only accessable when the bank is open... unless you pull the info from KCI (which you should if it's installed!)

    I plan to add bank support as soon as I can. I may rip out the AceInventory support, 'cause I actually think it doesn't help as much as was originally intended, and it makes some things more confusing. Either way, the only things stopping bank support right now is AceInventory. And I'll be adding it soon. Now the question is:
    PT, or bank support? which is more important?

    I'll probably add bank support before making my own PT categories, since bank support is a basic fundamental need, and PT categories are just good ideas. :)

    Hope sleep's going well.
    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categoriezed/Sorting/Awesome OneBag++
    Link: http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/fileinfo.php?id=4688
    Name: InvSort (until further notice) alpha/beta.

    Advanced Bags + Eng Inventory + One Bag + Tons of Awesome - Lots of Suck = InvSort.

    For a more full description, check out the link above. I don't want to maintain two full descriptions.

    All bug reports go in the portal, or they don't get listened to. :)

    The reason this isn't in released mods is because we're changing the name, and it's still alpha in my mind. As soon as I go beta, and change the name, I'll put it over in released mods. For now, I only want people who are willing to accept that this won't do exactly what you expect all the time to use it.

    I have a lot of TODO's for it, like write up a "how to make new/awesomer categories," and fix a few bugs I already know about. I would very much like to know what kinds of features people would like to see. Use the portal on wowinterface. Don't post requests here. DOn't post requests if you haven't used it. :)

    Hope you all love it. I know I do.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categorized/Sorting OneBag
    No, psychokitty. it's not. :) if that still happens with the new version, report it on the wowinterface portal?


    PS (new version!)

    I'm going to start a new thread for this, since i can't change the first post. :)
    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on MailTracker
    Pretty sure that works. Cut and paste the code to MailTracker.lua, write MailTracker.toc, and blammo. :)

    Then again, there's probably bugs. Someone should make this work and maintain it. Come on. Do it for the team.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on PlayOn's PartyAims. Aced.
    Party Aims is, without a doubt, the single most game-enhancing mod I've ever used. BeneCast is close, and nothing else even compares. Everything other than those two mods is just icing on the cake.

    But Party Aims hasn't been updated since November. And it has some serious flaws that Ace peopel wouldn't leave in a mod. Anyone out there interested in taking up the reigns and making AcePartyAims?

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on dedicated [FuBar] Plugins request topic
    BossBar [SpiritVsIntellect]
    BossBar [EmoteMenu]

    SpiritVsIntellect's Titanbar interface is provided with the mod itself, and TitanEmoteMenu is just so awesome.

    If nobody else'll do these, I'll probably get around to it on Friday. :P

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Polymorph sheep tracker
    It would be psosible to change ALL sheep to a different model, ala Totem Skinz. But not yours specifically, and probably not even only polymorphed sheep.

    Also, there's no way to tell if a given monster is a monster you've seen in the past except for the name, so if there' 3 mobs with the same name, and two of them get sheeped, they are entirely indestinguishable.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Metal Gear Solid.. ! alerts
    or to mouseover 'em. :)

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categorized/Sorting OneBag

    yeah, those of you who are adventurous and want to log in, see 600 errors pop up in BugSack (or click "ok" 600 times), then get a nice huge white frame that says how much money you have in the lower right corner.

    As soon as I get it so that, you know, it's doing what InvSort3 was doing, in any reasonable respect, I'll put it somewhere for you crazy people. I promise. :)

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categorized/Sorting OneBag
    okay. i hear it was just announced that in 1.10, they will let you make new instances of XML elements at run time.

    # Can create new UI Frames, Textures, and FontStrings at runtime.

    And since InvSort (still haven't picked a new name) is designed to be modular in hugely powerful ways, while remaining memory efficient, I'm not going to release a version before 1.10. Sorry to anyone actively seeking InvSort's upgrades, but I did two major changes to the InvSort3 that's released, and both of them are almost done, but would be 100 times better if I could make frames and buttons on the fly.

    I hate Blizzard for not doing this from the start, and I hate them even more for finally doing it after tens of my hours have been spent making as close to this kind of functionality as possible.


    If I get really bored I'll finish this as-is, but I really want the new functionality before I release. We'll see. Maybe, in order to mimic the new functionality, I'll change the system a little... actually, yeah. I could do that. Then it'd be an easy change once the new system goes live. Sweet. You still might see a somewhat limited, and memory inefficient version of this before 1.10.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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    posted a message on Categorized/Sorting OneBag
    Quote from "uaxli" »
    How about AdvancedBagPlus filtering functionality? I cant find any decent info about plans to Ace this wonderful, but very heavy mod

    Uh. These ARE the plans about Acing ABP. We're not providing full ABP functionality directly, but that's exactly what this is... We're not going to reimplement ABP. But this is the Aced equivalent.

    Posted in: Addon Ideas
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